TI Armageddon!!! woooo!!!

currahee · Post by **currahee** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 5:43 am

Weee

you can delete this now. We're starting to go offtopic again.. and I think I can call it a loss for me

Damn you optimists

Spengo · Post by **Spengo** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 6:32 am

Well, you're probably right that I won't be contributing to the ti-community when I'm 30. It's just kind of a hobby really.

I do intend to make grand theft avocado though, and I will probably end up making a cool fps for the 68k calcs eventually. If you hadn't noticed, though, none of my games are very graphics intensive. Even Dr. Snipe 2 still looks worse than the n64! Anyways I don't think graphics are really that much of an issue with calcs because, heck, you've got a 96*64 screen for crying out loud!

One of my favorite games for the 89 is scorched earth. Now, try and tell me that's got good graphics.

Not to mention Kevin_O's illusiat series of RPGs. ASCII art all the way! XD Dying eyes, considered to be one of the best z80 rpg's has some of the worst graphics I have ever seen! Anyways, I dont think graphics are the main thing for calc games. Personally, I don't think there will be a destruction point any time soon. Just look at how many great games are still in development. The only reason why everything seems to be going so slow here is that calc gaming is not a really huge market. It's just something to do while waiting for the bus, or to pass the time in a boring math class. Not everyone uses their calculator as their favorite handheld gaming system like me.

The only other person I've been able to convert to a calc-gaming freak is the sophmore kid at my bus stop.

Mostly, it's just us crazy people playing with each other's products. The calc game projects aren't a person's life either. We all have a sh*tload of other stuff we are doing. Calc programming is just a hobby that we do in teh free time. There are still new and cool things to be done with the calcs. connecting a mouse to a calc is one example of a new thing, and don't forget the 7 level greyscale people are trying to make for the z80 calcs! And what about this awesome new wireless thing?! That could revolutionize calc gaming! Imagine playing one of the 68k fps's with 3 other people in your math class via wireless link play! Pretty soon, calcs are gonna pass up gameboys as gaming devices. Heck, I think the 68k series especially have already passed up the gb original and gbp! If ti ever makes a calc with a higher res color lcd...yummy.

(maybe a handheld version of mathematica?)

'Twould own all other calcs in existence!

Post by **kv83** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 7:38 am

It's a nice opinion you give there buddy, but I totally disagree with you. What's so wrong with beeing 33 and contributing to something you like. Im 21 now, and have work, my own appartment and wonderfull girlfriend and enough things to spend my time on. Yet I still come here and even do some z80 now and then. I speek for myself now, but I would say that a lot of us are just addicted to those limited hardwares. I tried to leave the community, but returned. And I'll stay, even if I'm the only member left at MaxCoderz.

There is always enough to explore, just look at PTI. There is always enough to find out, just look at Kevin's Basic Grayscale. There are so much things to do. But some people just don't have the guts and motivation to do it. I salute Spencer for beeing propably the first one to make a REAL zelda. And I salute to everyone who makes a real (turn based or real time) strategy game. It's possible!

Post by **Kozak** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 8:11 am

I will probably also stay but the active z80 programmers in MC have to be replenished now and then.

And I have no idea where the community is going. Maybe we need a new calculator?

Post by **kv83** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 8:13 am

Kozak wrote:I will probably also stay but the active z80 programmers in MC have to be replenished now and then.

And I have no idea where the community is going. Maybe we need a new calculator?

One with a slighter faster chip and no docs and no ASM support would be nice...

... imagine, we could hack it and find out ASM all again

Post by **tr1p1ea** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 1:07 pm

These community doomsday articles are getting out of hand. As long as there are TI Calculators, and as long as im alive, there will be a TI Community

.

Bringing up these doomsday articles only makes things worse. It is not 'garaunteed', all we have to do is continue doing exactly what we are doing now ... calc coding.

I will agree that there isnt much fresh blood yet, but people tend to come out of nowhere in this field. The future of the calc community will be great, i cant wait to see what is in store for us

.

CompWiz · Post by **CompWiz** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 2:38 pm

kv83 wrote:
Kozak wrote:I will probably also stay but the active z80 programmers in MC have to be replenished now and then.

And I have no idea where the community is going. Maybe we need a new calculator?
One with a slighter faster chip and no docs and no ASM support would be nice... ... imagine, we could hack it and find out ASM all again

How about graphics acceleration, color screen, and big ram and archive?

And also, it should be the same size and shape as 89/83 so you can switch cases for exams

would low price be reasonable as well?

KermMartian · Post by **KermMartian** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 2:43 pm

CompWiz wrote:
kv83 wrote:
Kozak wrote:I will probably also stay but the active z80 programmers in MC have to be replenished now and then.

And I have no idea where the community is going. Maybe we need a new calculator?
One with a slighter faster chip and no docs and no ASM support would be nice... ... imagine, we could hack it and find out ASM all again
How about graphics acceleration, color screen, and big ram and archive? And also, it should be the same size and shape as 89/83 so you can switch cases for exams

would low price be reasonable as well?

Err, last time I checked the 83 and 89 ARE the same shape and size, as are the 84+/SE and TI-89ti

CompWiz · Post by **CompWiz** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 2:48 pm

KermMartian wrote:
CompWiz wrote:
kv83 wrote:One with a slighter faster chip and no docs and no ASM support would be nice... ... imagine, we could hack it and find out ASM all again
How about graphics acceleration, color screen, and big ram and archive? And also, it should be the same size and shape as 89/83 so you can switch cases for exams

would low price be reasonable as well?
Err, last time I checked the 83 and 89 ARE the same shape and size, as are the 84+/SE and TI-89ti

That's the point. Then you can put it into an 83 case and take it to an exam that doesn't allow higher model calcs.

kalan_vod · Post by **kalan_vod** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 3:05 pm

I would like to say articles like this are pointless, all they do is say boo hoo I think the community is falling apart because blah blah blah. So with that said I disagree with most of what you said, I think durks gs package is great and many people do keep the community active. But when there is no good projects then it isn't as active, we can't expect a calculator community to be around for ever. Yes when I thirty I wont be here and maybee after i'm done with school I will be gone from here, but till then we need to make the best of things and stop trying to get rid of people who are doing things for the com. like not scaring off new people if they ask where can I dl the newest ion, or how do you make games etc...

leofox · Post by **leofox** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 3:16 pm

currahee wrote:Hehe okay, we've had a few of these. Surprisingly, even TIcalc.org wrote one. If you haven't seen it, it's quite an old article but it's worth a read I believe. This topic is NOTHING NEW to those who have just joined and thought that this is the beginning of the end.

http://www.ticalc.org/community/articles/27.html

*ahem* Fellow calculator programming nerds , the issue of the state of the TI Community has been a long argued topic. If I can pinpoint exactly, it started to begin when the big programming groups and people started to dismantle. Following up on Justin's argument (Ticalc.org link), things start to die when creativity falls.
Back then when everything was fresh and new, my god there where loads of things to explore about the unexplored hardware! We're talking about ASM language development (Ion), Overclocking (I believe you could run your z80 6MHz 3x of the advertised speed ), calculator sound (Calculators emit radio waves via the port. Attach a calc-2-calc (old link, not the shitty new USB links) on the port, have the other end of the link near a radio reciever at an empty AM channel and hear your calculator sing!), hell even backlights!

Yes, but we still have these things, and we are better at them too. Were games better back then because we didn't know everything about the calcs? the contrary is true obviously, we're doing things with the calcs that ppl back then couldn't dream of. Like kevins basic games, like spencers zelda, grayscale, everything

However this "Golden Era" of the TI community soon fell out. Lots of people became inactive then, so the true decline of the TI community has happened long before than us people so concerned might have thought.

the decline of the community as you say doesnt exist. Ever since i joined, the activity has been rising. More projects are coming all the time, one even more awesome than the other

I believe what Justin says in his article is correct. Not only is there little creativity but also with today's advanced graphics systems, that's what people are starting to care about the most. Graphics, graphics, graphics. What do people look for in games today? Graphics. What do you see in most game comments now-a-days? Graphics. If the gfx are good, then the people like it. If they suck, my god the game sucks. It just works like that. The TI Calculators are somewhat more complex- I think people do understand the limitations of the TI hardware. So in part, what keeps this thing at least ticking is the belief that people already understand what the calculator is capable of.
However, graphics in a way DO kill the community. I won't put grayscale here. Although Duck did a commendable job with grayscale I don't think people love it so much because it's not as flickerless as it should be. If you have something new and the people like it, then people will benchmark it. Then people will only care about games with good graphics. Maybe some say that will be better since we will have purdy looking games. This kills creativity though- i bet there are a LOT of people who have such great ideas for games but can't do graphics. Graphics hurts the community in this way- i'll admit even I do it *feels ashamed*. Then again who doesn't? Who hasn't seen a basic game and shunned it because it didn't have graphics?

Graphics ARE important in a game. Obviously. Do you want to say that we should all play menu based basic beer baron games? Graphics should complement the gameplay though, not worsen it.

HOWEVER I would also like to add that the eventual oblieration and destruction of the TI Community (sounds heart-warming doesn't it? ) is being delayed. All thanks in part to Maxcoderz and Detached. As well as notable individuals such as Michael Vincent and Kevin. Maybe even UTI if they ever get Numbus rolling on the floor. However, one promising sign is always that everyone is here and active. You can't have an alive community with everyone being inactive. That means the community is dead or rather ....
I would especially like to commend Maxcoderz for weathering some critical moments. Especially when the community board has been hacked twice. And the saving of themselves by merging with Alienhead Productions. I believe this is the reason why both communities are still alive today. If the merge had not happened, both communities would have idled away. That's right. No FF:TOM 2 (though the demo was out when the merging process was coming), no Kevin's Zelda, no Spencer's Zelda, no *blah blah*. So I would like to point out a critical move in the Community was performed by Maxcoderz and Alienhead.

Spencer is not Maxcoderz. Kevin is not Maxcoderz. UTI does more than just Nimbus, Kevin actually used to be UTI.

Ahh good ol Detached Solutions with Michael Vincent and Kirk Meyer. of course if you know, Michael is still a strong force in the 83+ scene. With such development as the first "other" Ti-OS in development. While there have been moments that might have led to the Detached inactivity, there have always been new surprises that seem to keep the group alive. Groups are more important than individual people, I think. Groups give more activity to a community than just one person.
And so with the crappily written statement of the TI community- nothing has been concluded. Oh crap! So what I want to say is that the TI community is fading BUT there have been moments to delay it's descent to the beyond. With the unfortunate events happening in the gaming world which I would like to add, influences the TI world in a way, there IS a GUARNTEED destruction point waiting for the TI Community.

New people will always come with new calcs. As long as calcs are needed in school, young people will program for it.

Can some people stay in the end? Maybe. Unfortunately it is more like no one. Not even Maxcoderz, can stay standing. If you're 33 are you still going to contribute to the TI Community? no, you'd be working on life. We have seen it all- it is due by luck and interest from some people that we're even still here today. Successive delays are being brought upon by, for example, Spencer. I mean out of the blue one day he announced Zelda and posted a screenie. Took us all by surprise didnt it?
that doesn't mean I believe everyone should pack up and leave. Remember that when I say GUARNTEED DESTRUCTION POINT, it can be tomorrow (highly unlikely) to after 30 years (Will TI calcs even be around by then??? ). We do have the ability to push that day even further. If new people are willing to explore. Willing to save the community. Not just by talking, but by developing. Be it in BASIC or Assembly, crappy or perfect. Also to point out in Justin's article, there needs to be support. No flame wars saying how much crap something is. In fact, that's a reason why Kevin left if I can remember. Or not.

So not only do many users completely unappreciate what these programmers are doing, but there's also been some other problems with the community. If you look through the ticalc.org comment sections for the news posts (the ticalc.org comment system is just about the only place in the TI community where how all of us think and feel is seen), you'll see that most of them are completely off-topic. Others are hostile. Then there's advertising. And flames. Where did all of this come from? Everything is shown to get corrupted over time (as the books Brave New World, Lord of the Flies, and even Revelation tell us), but I didn't think this could be true for the TI community! I mean.. there's not that many of us. And come on people, these are graphing calculators! I can see that the TI community is taking a toll for the worst, and I don't know how/if it will turn around. I'm not knocking everybody of course. Thank ticalc.org for giving me a place to put this. Thank Dimension TI for an innovative archive index. Thank the TI-Files' friendly environment. Thank all the numerous programmers out there from before and now that have contributed.

I don't know if I really want comments to this article. The TI community doesn't need another 100k+ comment page to sift through. All I ask is that we clean up our act. I'd like to clean up the video game industry if I could, but I think I'd have more of a chance with this one.

To add everything up, you sound like a grumpy old man that thinks things were better in the old days. THEY WERE NOT. New calcs give new oppurtunities, and new programmers will always come. Graphics design is a part of creativity too. Maybe the ti-community will die, but not in the next 10 years.

currahee · Post by **currahee** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 4:04 pm

Yes, but we still have these things, and we are better at them too. Were games better back then because we didn't know everything about the calcs? the contrary is true obviously, we're doing things with the calcs that ppl back then couldn't dream of. Like kevins basic games, like spencers zelda, grayscale, everything

Grayscale wasn't a dream back then, there are several original NES Zelda games out there on ticalc.org's archives just to name a few.

the decline of the community as you say doesnt exist. Ever since i joined, the activity has been rising. More projects are coming all the time, one even more awesome than the other

A lot of websites have shut down during the years of idle-ness or are not being updated anymore. When I say decline I meant there are more losses than new things popping up. Ever since my brief idling period and when I came back it seemed the community has rebounded a little bit but not by much. Omnimaga seems all but gone now. Mergers are keeping things alive. I haven't seen any new programming groups.

Spencer is not Maxcoderz. Kevin is not Maxcoderz. UTI does more than just Nimbus, Kevin actually used to be UTI.

I said PEOPLE AND COMMUNITY. I was NOT IMPLYING that they were part of groups.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:16 am Post subject: Re: The state of the TI Community (Oh my gawd! not another o
currahee wrote:
Hehe okay, we've had a few of these. Surprisingly, even TIcalc.org wrote one. If you haven't seen it, it's quite an old article but it's worth a read I believe. This topic is NOTHING NEW to those who have just joined and thought that this is the beginning of the end.

http://www.ticalc.org/community/articles/27.html

*ahem* Fellow calculator programming nerds Cool , the issue of the state of the TI Community has been a long argued topic. If I can pinpoint exactly, it started to begin when the big programming groups and people started to dismantle. Following up on Justin's argument (Ticalc.org link), things start to die when creativity falls.
Back then when everything was fresh and new, my god there where loads of things to explore about the unexplored hardware! We're talking about ASM language development (Ion), Overclocking (I believe you could run your z80 6MHz 3x of the advertised speed Smile ), calculator sound (Calculators emit radio waves via the port. Attach a calc-2-calc (old link, not the shitty new USB links) on the port, have the other end of the link near a radio reciever at an empty AM channel and hear your calculator sing!), hell even backlights!
Yes, but we still have these things, and we are better at them too. Were games better back then because we didn't know everything about the calcs? the contrary is true obviously, we're doing things with the calcs that ppl back then couldn't dream of. Like kevins basic games, like spencers zelda, grayscale, everything
Quote:
However this "Golden Era" of the TI community soon fell out. Lots of people became inactive then, so the true decline of the TI community has happened long before than us people so concerned might have thought.
the decline of the community as you say doesnt exist. Ever since i joined, the activity has been rising. More projects are coming all the time, one even more awesome than the other
Quote:
I believe what Justin says in his article is correct. Not only is there little creativity but also with today's advanced graphics systems, that's what people are starting to care about the most. Graphics, graphics, graphics. What do people look for in games today? Graphics. What do you see in most game comments now-a-days? Graphics. If the gfx are good, then the people like it. If they suck, my god the game sucks. It just works like that. The TI Calculators are somewhat more complex- I think people do understand the limitations of the TI hardware. So in part, what keeps this thing at least ticking is the belief that people already understand what the calculator is capable of.
However, graphics in a way DO kill the community. I won't put grayscale here. Although Duck did a commendable job with grayscale I don't think people love it so much because it's not as flickerless as it should be. If you have something new and the people like it, then people will benchmark it. Then people will only care about games with good graphics. Maybe some say that will be better since we will have purdy looking games. This kills creativity though- i bet there are a LOT of people who have such great ideas for games but can't do graphics. Graphics hurts the community in this way- i'll admit even I do it *feels ashamed*. Then again who doesn't? Who hasn't seen a basic game and shunned it because it didn't have graphics?
Graphics ARE important in a game. Obviously. Do you want to say that we should all play menu based basic beer baron games? Graphics should complement the gameplay though, not worsen it.
Quote:

HOWEVER I would also like to add that the eventual oblieration and destruction of the TI Community (sounds heart-warming doesn't it? Very Happy ) is being delayed. All thanks in part to Maxcoderz and Detached. As well as notable individuals such as Michael Vincent and Kevin. Maybe even UTI if they ever get Numbus rolling on the floor. However, one promising sign is always that everyone is here and active. You can't have an alive community with everyone being inactive. That means the community is dead Smile or rather .... Sad
I would especially like to commend Maxcoderz for weathering some critical moments. Especially when the community board has been hacked twice. And the saving of themselves by merging with Alienhead Productions. I believe this is the reason why both communities are still alive today. If the merge had not happened, both communities would have idled away. That's right. No FF:TOM 2 (though the demo was out when the merging process was coming), no Kevin's Zelda, no Spencer's Zelda, no *blah blah*. So I would like to point out a critical move in the Community was performed by Maxcoderz and Alienhead.
Spencer is not Maxcoderz. Kevin is not Maxcoderz. UTI does more than just Nimbus, Kevin actually used to be UTI.
Quote:
Ahh good ol Detached Solutions with Michael Vincent and Kirk Meyer. of course if you know, Michael is still a strong force in the 83+ scene. With such development as the first "other" Ti-OS in development. While there have been moments that might have led to the Detached inactivity, there have always been new surprises that seem to keep the group alive. Groups are more important than individual people, I think. Groups give more activity to a community than just one person.
And so with the crappily written statement of the TI community- nothing has been concluded. Oh crap! So what I want to say is that the TI community is fading BUT there have been moments to delay it's descent to the beyond. With the unfortunate events happening in the gaming world which I would like to add, influences the TI world in a way, there IS a GUARNTEED destruction point waiting for the TI Community.
New people will always come with new calcs. As long as calcs are needed in school, young people will program for it.
Quote:
Can some people stay in the end? Maybe. Unfortunately it is more like no one. Not even Maxcoderz, can stay standing. If you're 33 are you still going to contribute to the TI Community? no, you'd be working on life. We have seen it all- it is due by luck and interest from some people that we're even still here today. Successive delays are being brought upon by, for example, Spencer. I mean out of the blue one day he announced Zelda and posted a screenie. Took us all by surprise didnt it? Wink
that doesn't mean I believe everyone should pack up and leave. Remember that when I say GUARNTEED DESTRUCTION POINT, it can be tomorrow (highly unlikely) to after 30 years (Will TI calcs even be around by then??? Sad ). We do have the ability to push that day even further. If new people are willing to explore. Willing to save the community. Not just by talking, but by developing. Be it in BASIC or Assembly, crappy or perfect. Also to point out in Justin's article, there needs to be support. No flame wars saying how much crap something is. In fact, that's a reason why Kevin left if I can remember. Or not.

Quote:
So not only do many users completely unappreciate what these programmers are doing, but there's also been some other problems with the community. If you look through the ticalc.org comment sections for the news posts (the ticalc.org comment system is just about the only place in the TI community where how all of us think and feel is seen), you'll see that most of them are completely off-topic. Others are hostile. Then there's advertising. And flames. Where did all of this come from? Everything is shown to get corrupted over time (as the books Brave New World, Lord of the Flies, and even Revelation tell us), but I didn't think this could be true for the TI community! I mean.. there's not that many of us. And come on people, these are graphing calculators! I can see that the TI community is taking a toll for the worst, and I don't know how/if it will turn around. I'm not knocking everybody of course. Thank ticalc.org for giving me a place to put this. Thank Dimension TI for an innovative archive index. Thank the TI-Files' friendly environment. Thank all the numerous programmers out there from before and now that have contributed.

I don't know if I really want comments to this article. The TI community doesn't need another 100k+ comment page to sift through. All I ask is that we clean up our act. I'd like to clean up the video game industry if I could, but I think I'd have more of a chance with this one.

To add everything up, you sound like a grumpy old man that thinks things were better in the old days. THEY WERE NOT. New calcs give new oppurtunities, and new programmers will always come. Graphics design is a part of creativity too. Maybe the ti-community will die, but not in the next 10 years.

To add everything up, you sound like one of those people who made Kevin leave. New calcs may give new oppertunities, but the "new calcs" have been so far rebranded TIs.

Timendus · Post by **Timendus** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 5:25 pm

This is a pretty difficult subject... I can't say that the community is dying at the moment (we're doing quite well) and it's pretty obvious that it will die some time (when laptops are obligatory in highschools

) but to determine if we're getting better or worse is pretty difficult...

On the one hand; I've been around here for almost six years now. Back then there were also greyscale applications. I played with them a bit, they flickered like hell, but it somewhat worked anyway. The 83+ didn't exist yet, so there was no Ion, no Mirage OS, no archive memory, but we were quite content with Ashell, Explorer, SoS, or whatever happened to be your shell of choice. Programs that managed to produce sound have been around for ages, and those haven't really improved much. At least the sound quality is still the same, be it in a modern lay-out. We used notepad to code in, like most people do now, or we used Chaos Assembler if we wanted an IDE. Chaos Assembler was really good (sprite editor, ascii table, compile hotkeys, everything you'd need), too bad it doesn't run properly in Windows XP...

On the other hand people today are writing greyscale games in Basic. I NEVER considered that possible six years ago. Assembly greyscale has very much improved (you can actually use it now

) thanks to Duck and Jim, MirageOS seems to be great (I never used it since I only own a Ti-83, but still

), we have a Ti Wiki, a new (proper!) emulator in the make, and people have managed to control the USB port on a calc model that nobody every expected to exist back then ("What's the use of a calculator with a USB port?"). Or how about on-calc emulation of other calculators?

In fact, the only thing that didn't change for the better is that Kerm Martian is STILL around after all this time

(Sorry Kerm, couldn't resist

) So the community (or it's products) has definately improved I think. And I don't believe we've managed to squeeze everything out of our little z80s yet: there's more to explore...

The only thing that's really limiting us is the fact that it's a single threaded processor. It would've been nice to have more options than just IM 1, because that's basicly what keeps us from writing advanced things like proper window managers, networking applications, new programming languages, et cetera...

And as KV said; we're still here, aren't we? I live on my own too, and I too have a lovely girlfriend and something that some people would call a job

I used my Ti-83 yesterday for some calculations on an exam, but before that I hadn't touched it in months, but I'm here nonetheless. Why would that change any time soon?

KevinJB · Post by **KevinJB** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 9:37 pm

These community doomsday articles are getting out of hand.

Dang, tr1p1ea, my mouth hurts from when you took the words out of them!*\

The TI Community (tm) has been going strong for almost a decade. There are better tools available, larger communitys, are huger projects going on now than there were then. Personally, I think these things come up just because a select few are drama-hungry. Making it does not help anybody.

Everybody has thought that it was going to die a year ago. Everybody thought it was going to die two years ago. Everybody thought it was going to die three years ago. Everybody...

Getting the point? In my ever-so-humble opinion, the TI Community will have died when all that's left is when all the members go around proclaiming it's immenint death.

Please, just leave well enough alone. Go choose something else, like Apple, to torment. Yeah, that'd be original.

*Yes, I thought that was clever

threefingeredguy · Post by **threefingeredguy** » Wed 09 Nov, 2005 9:39 pm

I love apple. Dont diss my macs.