Debate thread (revived)

[CompWiz]

1st. Do you or do you not concede that our boddies attempt to force us to sexuality? We are supposed to have sex, and evidence suggest your body will suffer damage from abstenience (google it if you disbelieve...but it will be hard to find the results amoungst the bias).

One of the abortion supporters here was saying that if a woman became pregnant and wasn't able to kill her child, she could very well commit suicide. I also recall someone saying that the parents of the mother might wind up going insane. If sex causes people to kill themselves, how is that better than not having sex? It has been a documented fact that a lot of girls kill themselves shortly after having sex for the first time(outside of marriage).

Look at Nikola Tesla. He was one of the smartest scientific minds, and he never had sex or got married. He invented many advanced things, and almost started putting up power plants that would transmit power wirelessly(no more power lines. Unfortunately, not enough money either). He lived a long and productive life, filing 700 patents! Our entire world would be very different today if it was not for him. He even invented the Radio, and Radar. Imagine a world without that! Who are you to say that your body will suffer damage if you don't have sex? He lived longer than the average lifespan, and did much more than you could ever hope to accomplish. His work was so advanced, it was confiscated by the government at his death so no enemy could use it against us.

2nd. Mariage is not based on sex, and vice versa. They can happen within each other, but I doubt highly that more than 20 percent of them have NO extramaritial sex. Why? Because sex is attractive while mariage is not exactly so. Why is divorce rate so high?

Why is the occurance of STD's so high? Marriage is neccesary to raise children well, and extramarital sex can ruin a marriage. A policy of abstinance until marriage would reduce STD's dramatically(they would virtually dissapear after only a few generations) and reduce the need to kill unborn children.

3rd. If a couple are fediel with each other, even if they don't plan to stay together permenantly, STDs should be a non-issue. If a couple use contraceptives, they should not have kids. So, they ARE being responsible...and if life decided to be a bitch then they should still be punished? Not IMO.

Whenever a woman has sex, she is taking a chance. That is her choice. If she definitely doesn't want to become pregnant, then she can just not have sex. It's not that hard. Sex comes with a price, and if you're not willing to pay, then don't do it.

4th. Not all married couples want kids! WOW! So, even if they get hitched, they may want the seed unstiched. You loose.

So, they should be able to kill the child for their own convienience? I don't think even Timendus agrees with that. Killing because you don't feel like doing something is just wrong.

So, in conclusion: Many people think mariage is shit, few won't have sex until then, many marriages will disolve, sex is a impulse, abstaining is bad for you, married couples may want kids no more than if they weren't married, and contraceptives can occasionaly fail regardless of how careful the intimates were

many won't have sex until then, those that do commonly get terrible STD's, many marriages will stay together(but some are broken because people are doing extramarital sex), and married couples are usually better able to care for kids than single people. If you are terribly afraid of getting pregnant, to the point of killing someone, you should just not have sex. Abstinance is the only way to be sure of not getting pregnant. It also has the nice effect of rendering you immune to all STD's.

[lecks]

Abstinance is the only way to be sure of not getting pregnant. It also has the nice effect of rendering you immune to all STD's.

so, what you're saying is, as long as you're married, you and your spouse magically get immunity to all STD's? i dont think so.

dude, in case you didnt know, abstinence is no sex until marriage. what you're maybe talking about is virginity.

[lloydkirk1989]

so, what you're saying is, as long as you're married, you and your spouse magically get immunity to all STD's? i dont think so.

No, he said that by not having sex, you won't get pregnant or have std's. Though, if you are a married couple and faithful to each other, then it is highly
unlikely that you'll get std's.

dude, in case you didnt know, abstinence is no sex until marriage. what you're maybe talking about is virginity.

No, abstinece is refraining from sex.

[Timendus]

One of the abortion supporters here was saying that if a woman became pregnant and wasn't able to kill her child, she could very well commit suicide. I also recall someone saying that the parents of the mother might wind up going insane. If sex causes people to kill themselves, how is that better than not having sex? It has been a documented fact that a lot of girls kill themselves shortly after having sex for the first time(outside of marriage).

You must understand that this has more to do with the responses someone has to expect from an intolerating society than with the fact that she had sex..?

People should be more open about sex and "extraordinary" relationships, that would make a lot of people feel better about themselves. Maybe even help to drop suicide rates. I think we're doing quite well in that department here in the Netherlands, though we too still have a lot to learn.

Marriage is neccesary to raise children well, and extramarital sex can ruin a marriage.

How dare you say this? Many, many people are raising their children just fine without being married, being single or together as an unmarried couple. Your view of the world is so incredibly biased...

So, they should be able to kill the child for their own convienience? I don't think even Timendus agrees with that. Killing because you don't feel like doing something is just wrong.

I don't think that's what Necro meant. But you're right, I wouldn't agree with an abortion "just because it's more convenient".

many won't have sex until then, those that do commonly get terrible STD's

Then again, most don't. Raise your hand if you've had whatever form of extramarital sex, and yet never had an STD please

many marriages will stay together(but some are broken because people are doing extramarital sex)

Or for many other reasons, including having an argument over the children, family, money, whatever...

and married couples are usually better able to care for kids than single people.

But then again there are unmarried couples raising children just fine, who - yes indeed - did have sex to be able to get those children in the first place

If you are terribly afraid of getting pregnant, to the point of killing someone, you should just not have sex.

Agreed

Abstinance is the only way to be sure of not getting pregnant.

Unless you are raped or impregnated in some other less common way.

It also has the nice effect of rendering you immune to all STD's.

Unless you get a bad blood transfer on your holiday to a country that's a little less carefull with such things, or if you fall in a needle that's been used by an infected drug addict, or the one partner that you choose to have sex with after marriage turns out to have an STD through whatever means, that you didn't know about because you couldn't have sex before marriage...

[Arcane WIzard]

It also has the nice effect of rendering you immune to all STD's.

Many STDs aren't just sexually transmitabble, but can be transferred by using the same towels after a shower, or by many other forms of indirect (read: nonsexual) contact. Didn't/Don't you pay any attention at biology class? (or whatever class is supposed to teach you this, sex ed?)

[threefingeredguy]

It doesn't at all make you immune to it. It makes it less likely for you to contract it, immunity remains the same.

[CompWiz]

Marriage is neccesary to raise children well, and extramarital sex can ruin a marriage.

How dare you say this? Many, many people are raising their children just fine without being married, being single or together as an unmarried couple. Your view of the world is so incredibly biased...

sorry, I corrected myself here:

and married couples are usually better able to care for kids than single people.

And that is true. I would know. I've experienced both, and talked to other who have.

So, they should be able to kill the child for their own convienience? I don't think even Timendus agrees with that. Killing because you don't feel like doing something is just wrong.

I don't think that's what Necro meant. But you're right, I wouldn't agree with an abortion "just because it's more convenient".

It seems that we have reched an agreement on abortion. It should only be allowed if being pregnant/giving birth will seriously endanger the mother's life, the child will definitely not survive(as confirmed by several doctors), or the mother was raped. And in any case, it should happen very early, before the baby develops a brain.

many won't have sex until then, those that do commonly get terrible STD's

Then again, most don't. Raise your hand if you've had whatever form of extramarital sex, and yet never had an STD please

But STDs are becomming more and more common. There is a very high chance that if you have sex with several people, you will get an STD. And it is possible that if you have, you might already have one and not know it.

many marriages will stay together(but some are broken because people are doing extramarital sex)

Or for many other reasons, including having an argument over the children, family, money, whatever...

But extramarital sex is a big one. When you got married, you promised to remain faithful to each other. Going against that is a terrible, hurtful thing to do. And it might even give STDs to your faithful wife.

If you are terribly afraid of getting pregnant, to the point of killing someone, you should just not have sex.

Agreed

Abstinance is the only way to be sure of not getting pregnant.

Unless you are raped or impregnated in some other less common way.
[/quote]
But I have said many times that you should be able to get an abortion if you have been raped. So, you wouldn't have to be pregnant very long.

It also has the nice effect of rendering you immune to all STD's.

Unless you get a bad blood transfer on your holiday to a country that's a little less carefull with such things, or if you fall in a needle that's been used by an infected drug addict, or the one partner that you choose to have sex with after marriage turns out to have an STD through whatever means, that you didn't know about because you couldn't have sex before marriage...

So, what's the chances you're going to fall on an infected needle in a way that it breaks your skin? And it would have to be fresh too. And what's the chances of needing a blood transfer in a foreign country, and you just happen to get some blood that has an STD? Really, you have an extremely minute chance of getting it some wierd way like that. And Abstinance means no sex, so you example about the married couple doesn't work.

Many STDs aren't just sexually transmitabble, but can be transferred by using the same towels after a shower, or by many other forms of indirect (read: nonsexual) contact. Didn't/Don't you pay any attention at biology class? (or whatever class is supposed to teach you this, sex ed?)

if you follow basic sanitary rules, your chances are pretty low. To get aids, you need to actually have very fresh blood from the other person go into your system through an open cut you have. Not very likely.

It doesn't at all make you immune to it. It makes it less likely for you to contract it, immunity remains the same.

true, but the end result is basically the same.

[Timendus]

I was just showing that things are a bit more relative than you like you present them. Shit can happen in other ways than the ordinary.

sorry, I corrected myself here:

and married couples are usually better able to care for kids than single people.

And that is true. I would know. I've experienced both, and talked to other who have.

Single parents can also raise their children perfectly well, but I can imagine that to be harder than with two parents, either married or not.

It seems that we have reched an agreement on abortion. It should only be allowed if being pregnant/giving birth will seriously endanger the mother's life, the child will definitely not survive(as confirmed by several doctors), or the mother was raped. And in any case, it should happen very early, before the baby develops a brain.

Well, as I stated before, I would want to add a few social reasons, but the basics are there indeed.

But STDs are becomming more and more common. There is a very high chance that if you have sex with several people, you will get an STD.

Unless you take proper protective measures, and this also has a lot to do with what kind of people you have sex with. In fact, I don't personally know anyone with aids or whatever other STD (and yes; most people would tell me).

And it is possible that if you have, you might already have one and not know it.

I'm not going into that, but trust me, I don't

[CompWiz]

I was just showing that things are a bit more relative than you like you present them. Shit can happen in other ways than the ordinary.

sorry, I corrected myself here:

and married couples are usually better able to care for kids than single people.

And that is true. I would know. I've experienced both, and talked to other who have.

Single parents can also raise their children perfectly well, but I can imagine that to be harder than with two parents, either married or not.

precisely.

It seems that we have reched an agreement on abortion. It should only be allowed if being pregnant/giving birth will seriously endanger the mother's life, the child will definitely not survive(as confirmed by several doctors), or the mother was raped. And in any case, it should happen very early, before the baby develops a brain.

Well, as I stated before, I would want to add a few social reasons, but the basics are there indeed.

would you mind spelling out what you would consider to be a social reason worthy of killing a child over?

But STDs are becomming more and more common. There is a very high chance that if you have sex with several people, you will get an STD.

Unless you take proper protective measures, and this also has a lot to do with what kind of people you have sex with. In fact, I don't personally know anyone with aids or whatever other STD (and yes; most people would tell me).

really? So people just talk openly about what STD's they have? I would think it would be kind of embarassing. And you don't just "know" if you have one. You can very easily get one and not know about it for years. If you had sex with someone who didn't know they already had one, you can still get it.

And it is possible that if you have, you might already have one and not know it.

I'm not going into that, but trust me, I don't

so, you got tested recently for STD's?

[necro]

Ok, lets pretend a girl, lets call her Jane Doe, and her husband John DON'T want kids. Lets say they don't have enough money to have a kid. Lets say that if they aren't alowed to get a legal abortion, Jane will go see a person they heard about. Dr. Cona Rtis says she can give an abortion anyways...so, the baby is not sedated and dies slowly and horribly, while Jane finds she is massively hemoraging and dies, and John ends up going to jail for negilent homicide and getting ass raped by a blonde hair peirced nipple man named ice, and subsequently gets cyphillus and dies of neuroligical damage. Dr Cona managed to get a way and with this last black market abortion had enough money to get her face changed up for a new one and to bring her husband Rapin Gbastard over to america and together they rape, torture and murder dozens of little girls and nail them to the walls of their basement...best of all they never get caught now out of suspision form the mexican government. YAY! Every body wins when you make abortion illegal.

(note, that was exageration...though not completely impossible) Making it illegal is just like having prohibition. "The world would be better without drinking, it causes problems and people don't have the right to pleasure." What happens? People still do it, they just get put at new risk, and it causes a surge of organised crime. Make abortion illegal and within ten years I'd bet they found some kind of black market organ trade using abortion doctors as a cover and as a way to get fresh stock kidneys and hearts, or something of the kind. Hell, they could make even more money by poping the mother with a cap, ripping out her innards, cutting out the kid cacearian and putting em on market to be a sex slave, and sow the girl back up to have a little fun with her before she rots.

[dysfunction]

Necro, your hypothetical situations are so ludicrous that they only hurt the pro-abortion argument.

[necro]

Well, the later is far from unlikely. How many prostitution rings are actualy fronts for organ harvesting. Back alley abortions happen, and they kill the mother and the child frequently. If a husband was involved, jail possible...prison rapings are not uncommon. So, all possible, though the whole string together is a bit less so.

[Timendus]

What Necro is probably trying to say is that people will try to have illegal abortions under unhealthy circumstances if it was illegal...

would you mind spelling out what you would consider to be a social reason worthy of killing a child over?

UNBORN child
If the mother herself is still a child, if the parents have the mental abilities of a child, if the parents cannot raise the child for whatever reason I can't come up with right now

really? So people just talk openly about what STD's they have? I would think it would be kind of embarassing.

Yes, most of the people I consider my friends would tell me things like that. Some even tell me (much) more than I want to know

And you don't just "know" if you have one. You can very easily get one and not know about it for years. If you had sex with someone who didn't know they already had one, you can still get it.

I guess that's true. But shouldn't I have heard of one case in all the years I've known these people? I do know for a fact that some of them have been tested for STDs and turned out to have none, so...

so, you got tested recently for STD's?

I said I'm not going into that...

[necro]

well...regarless of morality, we are debating LEGALITY, and under the constituion it says "equal protection under the law." Saying "Well, if you were raped you can get an abortion but they used responsible measures and didn't want/tried not to have kids to bad." This is unconstotutional. Also, the right to privacy has been ruled to include sexual rights. In other words, it has been ruled you have the right to have sex. Your whole argument is that a baby is punishment (correct me if I am missinterpreting your words) for sex. How can you the law punish you for something you are legaly alowed to do? Finaly, there is no scientific arguments on abortion, as such it is solely moral and religous. Congress shall not pass any laws on basis of religion. So, illigality is illegal IMO, and was according to the court already.

Off that, if some one got knocked and said "I am going to abort" what would you say to her? What would you propose be done?

[Arcane WIzard]

The fact that many people are against abortions causes women to illegal abortions that have them end up in the ER. Outdated social beliefs cause mutilation and death.