Denver legalised pot possesion

[CompWiz]

Do you have to shoot stuff to enjoy your friends?

I should hope not.

[Leumas]

* Top part is answering necro for any who want to read it*

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE ETHICAL STATUS OF MJ ONLY!!!

Actually this was about the legality of MJ Not the ethical status, unless you are contending that laws are the ethical stance of the society, which fits with everything I have said.

I am pretty sure if we didn't drive, our social system would deterorate and lots of people would die as their isn't enough land to produce food for every one with out a trade system. So cars presserve a livable system, guns are designed to kill. And that said, I doubt MJ influenced driving kills nearly as much as sobber accidents...definately less than drunk driving.

So the intention with which something is created is irrelivant to how it is used? I would love to see how you would can justify guns in general since they were designed to kill ANIMALS quicker so that people could get food easier and keep up their social system. They have been used differently now but that was what they were made for. Actually cars are not required to keep our society alive, trains could work, we just have to change our society. We existed before cars we could again.

Second of all, I believe there is a little saying...I can't remeber it exactly so here is my version: "Walk in a man's shoes before you judge his path." IOW, you can claim that you can fix problems your self, but plenty calim other wise...I fail to see a reason to believe they are lying just because you feel that way.

Did you notice my "damned if you do damned if you don't" statement from earlier? It agrees with you. I was not disagreeing.

Can you prove things get worse with drugs? Is not worse subjective? Ok, you have a shitty life (for your argument)...you use money to buy MJ, it makes you happy, a dealer shoots you up. Other wise, you have a horid job, make little money, go no where, wish you had died. Is that actualy better? Oh, and before you say it, not everyone can have a good life. In order for thier to be rich, their must be poor...for happy their must be sad...for gain their must be loss. Not exactly an equivical exchange, more like the richer you are the more ou take and the less you care about that which you took (law of dimenishing utility).

Wow. So how do dealers become rich? Wouldn't it be from making their "clients" poor? That is what you are saying. Otherwise no argument with that.

Oh, allergies exist all over the place...not just to drugs. So, what kind of argument is that? That being so, is it even possible to be allergic to MJ?

You do a great job of missing my points. But yes, it is possible to be allergic to MJ. I have 2 "aquantances" who are. Took one of them 3 weeks to clean out his system.

Um, people make choices that hurt others all the time...heck, if a girl gets hitched, doesn't it hurt the rest of the single male populous? However, I hardly ever see people chastise them. Similarly, being a soldier is not attacked even though death wil hurt people associated just as would suicide. Finaly, I bet I could make circumstances where you would commit suicide.

Marrige actually saves the trouble of males constantly fighting over the same girls, so it helps the rest of the male populous. And a lot of people chastise them. Ever hear of the mormans (spelling)?
And being a soldier is massivley attacked. Did you never see the riots that happened when soldiers came back from Vietnam, regardless of their post or duties over there. Being a soldier is the highest attacked job in the world. And about the suicide, I never said that it was impossible but I said you didn't have the "right".

Um, poe was a manic-depressed all his life. No matter what, MJ did not kill him, and a few people (including me) believe he was murder. He should have been in good health and was heading to a party...strange circumstances to die in a ditch.

And you studied Poe? He was manic-depressive but I was saying that the drugs he used (opium NOT MJ) lead to his situation. He was NEVER in good health, anyone who says otherwise is just trying to make a conspiracy theory and doesn't look at history as fact. Prove he was murdered and not just because you wish to believe it. He died in a street, but why did he leave england? Drug issues, his "father", couldn't stand his problems and how much it was costing the "father".

Um, MJ as an alternative to alcohol would likely reduce crimes and such by alot...so why punish people using the better alternative?

What ever happened to proving things? I haven't claimed anything on crime levels as far as drugs go. But if people are still breaking laws they should be punished even if it is a "legal" drug.

*I just relised there was nothing else contributed other than necro's statement sorry to all you out there.

[blueskies]

I would love to see how you would can justify guns in general since they were designed to kill ANIMALS quicker so that people could get food easier and keep up their social system.

Guns are tools of war, not agriculture. They may be used that way now, but not originally.

And no, I do not need to be drugged in any situation in my life. I have never felt any addiction to marijuana. But it does help me relax, expand my mind, enjoy certain activities. It is an activity that I choose to do on occasion that hurts no one but myself.

[AlienCC]

Warning: This post was not meant to offend, but rather defend my previous post for all those who do not understand.

I am pretty sure if we didn't drive, our social system would deterorate and lots of people would die as their isn't enough land to produce food for every one with out a trade system. So cars presserve a livable system, guns are designed to kill.

Yes I am sure we would all just drop dead and kill over, the world cannot exist without cars to drive much like it could not for thousands of years before the cars were invented in the 1900's. Have you ever studied world history by chance?

Second of all, I believe there is a little saying...I can't remeber it exactly so here is my version: "Walk in a man's shoes before you judge his path." IOW, you can claim that you can fix problems your self, but plenty calim other wise...I fail to see a reason to believe they are lying just because you feel that way.

In all of your wisdom you judge me, and accuse me of lying when you yourself have not walked in my shoes. For I lie not, everything I said is based on the knowledge I have gained during the course of my own life, based on experiences that I have had, and those around me. These are not things of which you know any more of then that which I have spoken of them.

Can you prove things get worse with drugs? Is not worse subjective?

Can you prove things get better? I need not prove things get worse, I have seen with my own eyes the effects it has on other people, and in the big picture of things it is not good for them.

Ok, you have a shitty life (for your argument)...you use money to buy MJ, it makes you happy, a dealer shoots you up. Other wise, you have a horid job, make little money, go no where, wish you had died. Is that actualy better?

You are the controller of your own happiness, nobody can force you to be happy, nobody can force you to be miserable, this is a conscious choice you make, even though you seem to not understand that.

Oh, and before you say it, not everyone can have a good life. In order for thier to be rich, their must be poor...for happy their must be sad...for gain their must be loss. Not exactly an equivical exchange, more like the richer you are the more ou take and the less you care about that which you took (law of dimenishing utility).

Yes everyone can have a good life. These are things you do not appear to understand. You do not need to be wealthy, or famous to have a good life. Many of the people who are numbered among they who are happiest, have the least. They are happy because many of them understand that happiness does not come from money or drugs, it is a choice you make.

Um, people make choices that hurt others all the time...heck, if a girl gets hitched, doesn't it hurt the rest of the single male populous?

No it does not, this type of action is a key fundamental in non-violent human prosperity. Such a relation ensures better care will be given in the raising of future generations. Perhaps if you would study world history you would see evidence of this happening time and time again in the past.

However, I hardly ever see people chastise them. Similarly, being a soldier is not attacked even though death wil hurt people associated just as would suicide. Finaly, I bet I could make circumstances where you would commit suicide.

I bet you cannot make a circumstance in which I would commit suicide, agency is not something any man can take away from me, no matter what they try to inflict any type of heinous action against me they cannot ever control my ability to choose to comply or defy them, even to the point they murder me. Life is a very beautiful thing, far too many people are blind to this fact.

Um, MJ as an alternative to alcohol would likely reduce crimes and such by alot...so why punish people using the better alternative?

I strongly disagree with your opinion here, and I refer to back to the the knowledge I have gained on such things in the past as my reason for disagrement.

Ok, MJ can let you focus better and think outside the box...

Where is proof of this? It has been my experience that those who are under the influence of Marijuana actually have a much slower response time, it does not sharpen your mind it dulls it. Ok so it lets you think outside your box, that is nothing you cannot do while completely sober. Everyone can develop the ability to think independantly in the fashion typically referred to as "outside the box", this is where a lot of great artists of art, literature, music, and so forth get much of their inspiration, not while on mind altering substances.

Do you have to shoot stuff to enjoy your friends?

Do you even have real friends, or know what real friends are? Perhaps even more importantly, do you even think about what you are saying before posting half the time? No offense but most of your arguments and rebuttals are all over the place.

If the government was working the way it was originally intended there would be only laws to prohit the actions which cause harm to others.

--AlienCC

[necro]

Warning: This post was not meant to offend, but rather defend my previous post for all those who do not understand.

right...

I am pretty sure if we didn't drive, our social system would deterorate and lots of people would die as their isn't enough land to produce food for every one with out a trade system. So cars presserve a livable system, guns are designed to kill.

Yes I am sure we would all just drop dead and kill over, the world cannot exist without cars to drive much like it could not for thousands of years before the cars were invented in the 1900's. Have you ever studied world history by chance?

The number of people alive today is astronimicaly bigger than prior to even 1950. World markets require transportation, without it their would be colapse (at least with our current social structure) and millions to tens of millions would die of starvation. There isn't enough land for every one to farm...that simple, without specialisation we would be dying, just as Rome would have died (literaly) out without its transportation.

Can you prove things get worse with drugs? Is not worse subjective?

Can you prove things get better? I need not prove things get worse, I have seen with my own eyes the effects it has on other people, and in the big picture of things it is not good for them.

You could live a "good" life, live into your hundreds by having your body hooked up to all kinds of dialysis and exercising constant intervals and eating a perfectly balanced congeal of protien, fat and starch...and be completely misserable. Would that life be enjoyable though?

Ok, you have a shitty life (for your argument)...you use money to buy MJ, it makes you happy, a dealer shoots you up. Other wise, you have a horid job, make little money, go no where, wish you had died. Is that actualy better?

You are the controller of your own happiness, nobody can force you to be happy, nobody can force you to be miserable, this is a conscious choice you make, even though you seem to not understand that.

You don't choose to be misserable, missery happens to you. Some one could have been born with a disease that caused them to feel intense pain all the time and it would not been their choice...if one decided a OD on herione was better, who would you be to judge?

Oh, and before you say it, not everyone can have a good life. In order for thier to be rich, their must be poor...for happy their must be sad...for gain their must be loss. Not exactly an equivical exchange, more like the richer you are the more ou take and the less you care about that which you took (law of dimenishing utility).

Yes everyone can have a good life. These are things you do not appear to understand. You do not need to be wealthy, or famous to have a good life. Many of the people who are numbered among they who are happiest, have the least. They are happy because many of them understand that happiness does not come from money or drugs, it is a choice you make.

Not every one can have a good life and that is obvious because they don't. I can find a poor person and tell him you say he is happy and he would unseam you from ear to naval with a crow bar. I don't chose when I am and am not happy, my enviroment (and the people in it) does.

Um, people make choices that hurt others all the time...heck, if a girl gets hitched, doesn't it hurt the rest of the single male populous?

No it does not, this type of action is a key fundamental in non-violent human prosperity. Such a relation ensures better care will be given in the raising of future generations. Perhaps if you would study world history you would see evidence of this happening time and time again in the past.

Nope, I look at history and see that when one man loves a woman, often enough a third man will be made mad with love and do things most horrible...or that a man will love some one enough they are willing to kill them because they can't have them. When one man has a woman, no other man can...and their are more than a few cases in which to men want the same woman. It isn't just a matter of numbers, and there will always be men and women whom nobody wants.

However, I hardly ever see people chastise them. Similarly, being a soldier is not attacked even though death wil hurt people associated just as would suicide. Finaly, I bet I could make circumstances where you would commit suicide.

I bet you cannot make a circumstance in which I would commit suicide, agency is not something any man can take away from me, no matter what they try to inflict any type of heinous action against me they cannot ever control my ability to choose to comply or defy them, even to the point they murder me. Life is a very beautiful thing, far too many people are blind to this fact.

I could take everyone you love and slowly torture them utill you slit your throat. If you still did not, I could just break your bones one by one, with intermissions of tasering and wound salting. Sick, yes...but you would likely not be willing to die if your situation was horrible enough?

Um, MJ as an alternative to alcohol would likely reduce crimes and such by alot...so why punish people using the better alternative?

I strongly disagree with your opinion here, and I refer to back to the the knowledge I have gained on such things in the past as my reason for disagrement.

what information?

Ok, MJ can let you focus better and think outside the box...

Where is proof of this? It has been my experience that those who are under the influence of Marijuana actually have a much slower response time, it does not sharpen your mind it dulls it. Ok so it lets you think outside your box, that is nothing you cannot do while completely sober. Everyone can develop the ability to think independantly in the fashion typically referred to as "outside the box", this is where a lot of great artists of art, literature, music, and so forth get much of their inspiration, not while on mind altering substances.

And I have seen evidence other wise...and state altering will make less likely negative chaining that restricts thinking methods. Please, if you can prove that MJ does not promote creative thinking, well...go ahead. It seems to me you are quite uneducated about MJ and its effects.

Do you have to shoot stuff to enjoy your friends?

Do you even have real friends, or know what real friends are? Perhaps even more importantly, do you even think about what you are saying before posting half the time? No offense but most of your arguments and rebuttals are all over the place.

Wow, I don't know what what frineds are or have any...right...and no, I don't think about what I say. My point was contrary to -do you need to dope up to enjoy your friends- as I thought that it was an assholesque (my word) thing to say...and it seems that what you just said was rather assholesque as well.

If the government was working the way it was originally intended there would be only laws to prohit the actions which cause harm to others.

righhhhht....they don't give a flying fuck about us, look at how the government creates laws to protect industries at people's expense such as deregulation, anti-piracy, trade secrets and soft ware copy rights, and non-discloser laws.

[AlienCC]

Seems I have broken one of my own rules:



Having said that I will post no more in this thread, I've already said everything I need to in my previous 2 posts.

--AlienCC

[blueskies]

The only way you seem to 'win' these arguments is by making rediculously long posts that no one wants to take the time to read, making insults and rediculous assumptions about people who are trying to debate and sort out their thoughts on a subject. Thanks for leaving.

[necro]

Seems I have broken one of my own rules:



Having said that I will post no more in this thread, I've already said everything I need to in my previous 2 posts.

--AlienCC

The only thing worse than an idiot is one who thinks every one else is one...and then post spam pictures procliaming such. If that is all you can say, well, I would be glad to see you in here no more as you obviously lack the ability to make valid arguments as opposed to attacks.
-------------------------------------
Oh, here is some info on MJs effects:
Â¥ mild euphoria
Â¥ relaxation
Â¥ increased sociability
Â¥ heightened sensory perception
Â¥ increased consumption of high carbohydrate foods (but not an increase in appetite)
Â¥ loss of sense of time
Â¥ perceptual changes
Â¥ depersonalization (feelings of loss of personal identity or feelings of being different, strange or unreal)
--Some people experience unpleasant effects with marijuana. These unpleasant effects are more common at higher doses or in naive users.
--They include:
Â¥ sensation of "high" anxiety
Â¥ tension
Â¥ confusion
Â¥ panic
Marijuana appears to impair all cognitive processes associated with learning, with the exception of abstract thinking and vocabulary.
http://www-health.concordia.ca/healthEd ... #MARIJUANA
and here is a good site with marked sources
http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html

[Arcane WIzard]

Some drugs can make some things better for some people. Some people can learn and improve their lives with cocaine. Others destroy themselves and people. Some can learn and improve their lives with alcohol. Others degrade into a personal hell because of alcohol. Cocaine can be used with or without destroying your body, unlike what society would like us to believe, and alcohol can be used with or without destroying your body. A knife can be used to slice bread into nice edible slices for a hungry person, but you can also stab him with it. Do we ban knives or do we ban the stabbing?

About happyness. You choose to be miserable because of the misery that happens to you. If somebody hurts you, even physically, then you always have the choice to be at peace with it or not. However, due to our attachment to materialistic things we often choose not to be at peace. We are unhappy when we narrow this choice down to only the unhappy option because of a narrow view on the situation. The choice is still there, you just need to take a step back, open your eyes, and see it for what it is. I wish I got this down better than I do though, don't think I'm looking down on you or anyone else here who (may) disagree that this choice exists.

I don't think legalising marihuana reduces crimes by a lot, because people don't commit many violent crimes to buy (and devinately not due to being under the influence of) marihuana. Legalising (in a responsible way) heroin and cocaince would however more than likely help reduce crime much much more. (torrent: http://www.torrentspy.com/directory.asp ... &id=308965 )



I feel legalising marihuana for personal use is good for other reasons. Freedom of choice, for one. Sadly, law has little to do with responsibility and freedom of and to yourself. This legalisation is a small step in the right direction.

And yes, there is nothing drugs can do for you that you can't do for yourself without them. But in society's eye they're just "unnatural" and you doing "unnatural" things that they don't do puts you out of their control, which is terrifying for them. (sorry for the poor spelling and such on that page, if you want to hear the lyrics go buy the album or something)

I personally see nothing wrong with using them to expand your mind, nor to "trip balls" as long as you don't hurt anyone. Oh, and a huge lot of artists find their inspiration with the help of some mind altering substances. Mind altering substances and the altered mind are a huge part of art all over the world. I've never even taken drugs and I know for a fact that I've learned a great deal from drugs and what they inspire in many many people, I can only imagine what you can learn when you do take them, responsibly.

[CompWiz]

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

[blueskies]

Arcane, thanks for a thought provoking post that isn't based on heresay and generalizations. I like what you say about happiness, and the choice on how to react to it. I've learned this lesson for myself in the last few years, and I think widened it as a way to view all situations in life. I have a friend who is a total hypocondriac, and thinks he's depressed all the time.. basically looks at things negatively. I just try to always stay positive, because there's not enough time to sweat about the small stuff, you know?

Sorry to go OT there.. I was thinking the other day about how things might be if marijuana was legal. Let's say growing for personal use, posession (<2-3 ounces, let's say) and consumption are all legal, but selling large amounts is still illegal. I think it could either go two ways: 1) chaos. Everyone starts growing/trying to sell. This causes problems for the 'criminal sellers' who try to run the game and make the most money off of selling drugs. This is the worst case scenario. 2) not-chaos (haha, can't think of a better word). Since people are allowed to grow what they want, they don't need to walk the streets looking for a hook-up. Since they aren't buying from others, those large-scale growers aren't needed anymore. This could reduce crime/violence that is related to the drug trade, and overall make things much better. Can't say which one would occur, but it would probably be somewhere in the middle.

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

Maybe in movies. I can only speak from my own experiences, but I use responsibly, am not addicted, have plenty of money in the savings account, etc etc etc...hasn't ruined my life.

[necro]

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

You are asuming everyone gets addicted...that is not the case. Few get addicted to MJ, it is less addictive than caffine...Cigs are the opposite though. Drugs are every where, many save lives. MJ can prevent AIDS waisting disease...a legitimate use you may have heard of. That said, it far less addictive and harmful than many legal drugs...yet I rarely hear people attack mariage as it is a legitimising of an addiction that consumes a lot of a life.

[Arcane WIzard]

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

Many, they're just not shown on MTV, that's all. On the other hand, there are also many who destroy themselves with it.

How do you know drugs have destroyed more lives than helped? Ever heard of the 60's? Flower power wasn't about florists. (for those of you who click the link and check out some articles about it [there's some very big ones out there]: I don't agree with the "drop out" part btw)

And drugs aren't a new thing either, we've been tripping since at least the stone ages, (plenty of cave drawings and such proove that) and that's a long time without people abusing eachother (or themselves because money wasn't invented yet) over drugs. So combining that with knowing that we never hear about happy things in the media (so happy drugs use is totally out of the question) so there's many cases we never hear of, I imagine that drugs have improved more lives than destroyed.
(some even think the only reason we invented language is mind expansion through using psychedelics a loooong time ago, that's a lot of positive influence in humanity caused by drugs.. we'll never know but I like that thought)

I believe that shows that drugs aren't a problem, but how you use them can be. Especially physically addicting ones. (magic mushrooms [psilocybe cubensis for example] aren't, salvia divinorum isn't, marihuana isn't, LSD isn't, etc)

About the consequences of legalising pot, you only have to look at other countries that have done it years ago. None of them exploded into chaos. As it turns out, drugs users are people too. Besides, I don't think I have to tell you that pot being illegal is keeping people from growing it at home. Most of those who want to already do. Legalising it would increase use a little, and decrease crime (and not just because there'd be few arrest due to pot possession , but like bluefire pointed out in his scenario #2). Neither of which is a bad thing.

[DarkerLine]

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

So has smoking or alcohol, yet both of those are legal.

[CompWiz]

Yes, but who uses them responsibly? You get addicted to them, and waste all of your money and time on the drugs, sometimes ruining your relationships in the process. Drugs have messed up more lives than they have helped.

So has smoking or alcohol, yet both of those are legal.

Did I ever say I agreed with what drugs the government allows? The only reason that cigaretts are legal is because of all the money the government gets from them.